SPEAKER_00 0:00

Across the board, about 80% of first-time guests never come back to your church. Instead of just accepting that number, I think we should maybe back up a little bit and say, okay, why are they not coming back? And maybe really thinking through the door before the door, which is the one most pastors never audit.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Welcome to the Build a Church podcast, where we help you gain momentum, grow your church, and go the distance. I'm Josh Roberry. Wherever you're listening to this show right now, I want to thank you for taking time to invite me and our guests into your world. It means a lot to me that you would spend that time with us. I know that you don't have to, and there's lots of other options. So I want to say thank you if it means a time. If you wouldn't mind, I would ask you one favor to everyone that's enjoying this show. That is to hit the subscribe button and to go to wherever you listen to the podcast and leave us a review. It's one of the best things you can do for this show. It helps others know that it's helpful, beneficial, and worth giving their time to. So thank you for listening and thank you for doing that. Today I get to sit down with Pastor Brad Hampton from Stoko Church in Bentonville, Arkansas, to talk about creating a guest journey game plan for your church. Brad wants to start with Arkansas, begin giving back by helping churches with their marketing, advertising, so they can gain track in their community and get the word out about their churches. Not only that, but Brad also oversees and runs Hello Church, which offers church approach strategies to church winners and pastors by helping them with their digital ads and many other areas. I love about Brad is that as hard isn't just to get people to church, but to take care of the people that arrive there. So in this episode, we're gonna break down before they get to the church, when they're at the church, and what happens after they make their first visit, that you can create a game plan for your church. Before we jump into that, I want to mention your team.church because it's one of the best tools you can use in your own guest journey game plan. It helps guests take a next step once they get to your growth track because they take an assessment and spiritual gift test that helps them discover how God designed them, but also tells them what it's like for their personality to serve on a team that they're matched to based on how God has wired them. It's quick and easy to set up. It's free to use right now for 30 days to get all the pro tier level tools. So go check it out at your team.church. Now let's jump into our conversation with Brad. Another day for me means another conversation with Brad Hanton, but today we get to do it recorded for everyone on the Build the Church podcast. Brad, thank you for joining the show. Yeah, thanks, Josh. Great to be here. Yeah, well, I love you. You're one of my closest friends and a great resource for pastors. Just happens to be that you get to be both of those for me. And I'm happy to talk with you today about helping people understand the preparation that goes into the guest experience and mapping that journey for people so that they are on an intentional path that's leading to discipleship leadership and thriving in the local church. So before we jump into this episode, what is that basketball on your shelf? Is that just a basketball?

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Man, that is the example of the goodness and grace of God because the most hated coach of all time for me as an Arkansas Razorback is Coach Cal. And now he's my favorite coach in the world because he finally came over, you know, he finally saw the light. And uh yeah, so that's that's my coach cow basketball up there. Nice. So he signed it for you? He did, yep. Got to meet him and signed the basketball. My son got to meet him as a he's just an awesome guy, by the way. Gotta say, he's annoying on the sideline sometimes, especially when he's beating you for decades. But uh now we're on the same team, man. I love the guy.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

I'm glad you guys have a good coach. And you're a great coach. You help church planners and marketing, uh church growth strategies. You're pastoring Soko Church and uh been able to develop some tools that help churches as well. So, real quick, just tell us a little bit about that journey and uh what you're doing to help churches. Yeah, great segue there, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Um yeah, so planted a church in 2018. Josh, you and I met not long after that and really saw, started seeing the gap in churches in a number of areas, including in the world of marketing. And so came from a marketing background, was a part of a startup for 11 years, starting at age 21, got to become the director of marketing for that company that just exploded. When I came into the church world, it was like, hey, I've I've kind of done this before when we planted a church and we launched really strong, especially for 2018. And then just as I started connecting and pouring into churches, which I love, love, love to do, I had the opportunity to start creating a more scalable way for us to support churches. So we designed, developed, and implemented Hello Church into hundreds of churches. And it's been just really, really, really rewarding helping both pre-launch and post-launch churches reach new people in their area that just didn't know they existed.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Well, in that, you've learned a lot about the guest experience and the preparation that's required to make it meaningful once they get there. SOCO Church grew really fast. I think you guys were the first one to launch, and then in the first Easter, have a thousand people at Easter. And I got to visit your church, and I love visiting churches because you know I love what I get to do, helping pastors and seeing all the systems and the experiences. Normally have a lot of feedback for people to give them, but I didn't have any feedback for Soko Church. I was just like, man, you guys are doing amazing. This is awesome. Uh, so you guys understand what it takes for guests to come back and continue to take in step. So I'm excited to have that conversation with you today. Uh, what are some things that you would say right off the bat that people need to think through whenever they're thinking through their guest experience?

SPEAKER_00 5:46

First, we know that across the board, about 80% of first-time guests never come back to your church. Instead of just accepting that number, I think we should maybe back up a little bit and say, okay, why are they not coming back? And maybe really thinking through the door before the door, uh, which is the one most pastors never audit. And that's what is that experience from street to seat that is occurring for someone? Because we know uh the data tells us that in that first seven to eight minutes, someone's already pretty much determined if they're coming back. Now, they'll come on in, they'll enjoy the experience, but that first seven to eight minutes is so important. And rarely do I talk to a church that's really honing in on that part. Most of them are trying to create a better sermon, a better worship experience, their lighting, et cetera. And those are good things to do. But man, if we don't first think about the entire experience from when they found you to when they walk in and sit down in the auditorium, we're really, really missing out on helping defeat that 80% that are not coming back. That's a huge deal. It's not like they're just going to the mall to buy something. It is they are coming to your church with a certain expectation. They're coming to your church hoping that they find home, right? This is a big, big deal that pastors don't really feel the weight of that a lot of times. And so we want to make sure that we're thinking through that entire process because if eight or nine of ten families that show up don't come back, something I think can be improved on. But honestly, we rarely audit that part of the experience.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

You've been obsessed with guest experience for as long as I've known you. In fact, when you were developing Hello Church, you had a kind of a different approach to it. You really cared about what people were experiencing in a church and you wanted to focus more on that. You and I talked, and we knew that doing Hello Church would give you the opportunity to help people with that experience. And so I'm glad people are getting to see the other side of that tool and you know why you developed it, because that's why I always feel so confident recommending you to other churches because I know you don't just care about getting people to church. You care about what is happening with those people once they get there. And one of the things that you mentioned is I think right, people do think about once they get there, what is the experience, but what we don't talk about is what does a pastor team church need to do to get ready for that guest and plan that portion out. So I'd love for you to map that kind of pre visit, pre-showing up on Sunday experience and what what that needs to be.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

It may sound very simple, but we just did this actually leading into our fall growth season. I took our entire team out. We went out to the entryway of our parking lot and we started walking through it. But here's the thing churches and pastors struggle to do looking through the lens of a first-time guest. And I just want to remind everyone something that we struggle with because we haven't been a first-time guest in so long. Uh, everyone is comparing their worst church experience to their next church experience. So we've all had a bad church experience. Josh, you've had one. Luckily it wasn't at Soko, it sounds like, but we've all had a bad church experience. And for the people that we're trying to reach, a lot of times they're not super churched or they didn't come from a mega church. They maybe went to grandma's church and it was weird, or they maybe went to a church and like, hey, all the new people stand up. So we've all had a bad church experience, so to speak, and we're all afraid we're gonna have that bad church experience again. Here's how I know that not only because of what we do at Soko, but helping churches literally all over the world now, we get stories, and and this has happened in our church as well, where people are texting or messaging, emailing from the parking lot that they're in their car and they're just really anxious to come in. I mean, we know that uh Gen Z says like 47% of them are anxious often. So there's this anxiety of acceptance, there's this anxiety of could this be like what I experienced once before? There's this anxiety, is anyone gonna talk to me? And man, we all love our churches as leaders and we all think it's the best thing, it's the best kept secret in our entire city. And that may be true, but before that person can truly experience that best kept secret the way you want them to, we first have to help them overcome the challenges of the anxiety, the fear, the bad church experience, et cetera. And I think we struggle with that a lot of times because we haven't been a first-time guest in so long. This really stood out to me years ago when we had our first kid. We were actually in Destin, Florida, Josh. Beautiful Destin. And we went to Destiny Church, which was a growing church. It's really growing now. But uh, I knew some of the people on staff there. I knew that I knew everything really about that church because I had been before we had our son too. I knew it was a great experience, but I'd never taken my kid for the first time to a church that I didn't know really anyone. And he was maybe two. I remember how anxious I was handing off my firstborn son to people I had never met. I know it's a great church. I know they probably background check and they vet and it's gonna be great, but I don't know them. And man, that really stuck with me. We're so particular at Soko thinking through that with anyone who's bringing kids in for the first time. We take them to the room, we introduce them to the teachers. A lot of churches don't share that, hey, this is a fun, safe, clean place. Everyone's background check. We don't share that stuff. Like you should have an actual document you hand to first-time parents that tell all the things they need to know versus again us just assuming people know, assuming they're fine to walk in the lobby, assuming they're fine to come into an area that that's full of people they don't know and that they're fine. So we have to think through things like that. People aren't just nervous, they're also a lot of times carrying a story from another church. And our welcome is either going to meet that story or we're going to ignore that story based on how we're preparing for first-time guests.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

That's so important. And it's something I've experienced over the last few years. And those experiences have taught me that churches need to realize that there's two questions people are asking when they go in. Do I like these people? Will they like me? And then you bring up a third question. What in the world's going on around here? You know? Yeah. And we can't assume that people know the answer to those questions. When I used to teach the branding session at the Arc Launch training, I'd put on the screen like 16 different faces from 16 different backgrounds and say, these 16 different people each have a different assumption of what your church is going to be like. And if you don't tell them what your church is like, they're bringing a wrong assumption into that church. So you mentioned the guide. What are some other things that people can do to begin to communicate who the church is so that the guest is more comfortable taking that next step?

SPEAKER_00 12:49

One huge thing we can do is give clarity where to go when they get there. So for us, we put that outside. I send a personal text video still every Sunday to anyone who's planned their visit. And I show them where to go. I speak to their fears. I tell them things like, hey, by the way, we don't have you stand, we don't call you out. In fact, we want to let you be as anonymous as you want to be. So I'm giving them clarity. I'm speaking to their fears. I show them where to go. We have a very clear tent and table outside because we want them to pull in and know the exact line of sight of where they have to go before they come into a lobby. The other thing I would say, Josh, you hit it a little bit there. We often are answering questions nobody's asking. For instance, if I'm coming to your church, yes, I'm going to care about the vision. Yes, I care about the history. I care about your next series. I care how good your your pastor and the preaching is, the music, all those are things I do care about, but that's not what I care most about right now. Right now, I care about is this church a place for my seasonal life? Is this a life-giving or life-draining environment? Are they going to accept me? Can I fit in here? Will there be anyone here who looks like me? Do I get to have my laugh together before I show up? Or can I just show up messy? There are so many other questions people are asking before they really want to know the vision, et cetera. And so a lot of times we're forgetting that we need to be answering actually more basic questions before we answer the big questions. I've talked to you about this for years, but the biggest barrier between someone showing up to your church or not, that barrier is unanswered questions, because often we're answering the wrong questions. That's really good. Tell me a little bit more about that. It comes down to our website, our social media presence, our communication, what we're saying. I think giving clarity is super kind. And often the clarity that people are looking for, again, whether it's on our digital ads, whether it's on our digital presence, whether it's in where we put our first-time guest table, like all of that is answering a question. But let's not try to answer the big things until we first can answer the small things to help them. For instance, digital ads I see all the time are a lot of times like a sermon clip. And that's not a bad thing. But instead, let's tell the story of a Sunday. Let's let someone know in the lobby that they can wear jeans and a t-shirt and they were going to be okay. Let's show them that we have a focus on the next generation. Things like that are so important in our website and our web content. And, you know, if it's, you know, this, if it's stock photos, et cetera, we're not doing them any favors. We want to make sure and share that. We also know that people are going to go to your live stream and watch. I think it's like 80% of people go to try to find a live stream before they show up. This is so key right here, Josh. They're not just watching that live stream to see how good the service is. They're actually trying to find an inside look to what a Sunday is going to be like. So, for instance, on our websites, man, we should be giving like a video walkthrough of what a Sunday looks like. If you have a video you can send out to people when they plan their visit, things like that to help them feel more comfortable. I don't know if you're like this, Josh, but if my wife and I are going to like a new hotel, when we do that, I like to go on YouTube and there's typically someone who's done like a video walkthrough of the different types of rooms. Why? Because I don't want to be surprised. I want to know what I'm showing up to. And I promise you, for churches, that's a way bigger deal than even a hotel room, right? They want to know what's the experience going to be like. Nobody wants to be surprised coming to a church unless it's a obviously a good surprise.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

I feel like you've read my notes that I use when I'm coaching planters on this, Eric. It's like you're hitting so many of the things that I tell people. And we hadn't talked in detail what you'd be sharing before this. So I'm I'm just really pleased and excited and surprised, I guess in a good way, like you said. But one of the things that I tell pastors is that people walk through three front doors of your church. They walk through the digital front door, which is your Instagram and your website, and whatever Google tells them about your church. And you have to pay attention to that front door. They walk through the front door of your culture, what they experience when they pull into the parking lot, what they experience as they're coming through the doors, and what your church is like, the atmosphere of your church. And then they walk through the physical front door. And that is, do they know where to go? Are the signs pointing them in the right direction? Who is there? Um, what story is being told them when they go through those front doors? And if you can master those three front doors to your church and understand that they're walking through all three of those, you're normally going to see a higher retention of them coming back and then taking a next step at your church. Uh, what would you say about those three? I feel like you've covered them pretty extensively, but is there anything else you would add?

SPEAKER_00 17:35

I would say that sometimes when we are auditing our church based on friendliness, we say, yeah, people are smiling and waving. But to truly audit your church on how friendly your church is would mean auditing how many new people are finding friends in your church. It's free to be a friendly church, but it is much more intentional to be a church where people find friends. The ability to see someone new and say, oh my God, a young couple and you have a baby, I've got to introduce you to this other couple. And then having a culture in your church where people know that's gonna happen and they want to invite people to lunch, they want to invite them to their group, that's a big struggle I see churches have is moving people from a first-time guest to being fully involved in your church. That's a breakdown. We we know how to get first-time guests, we know how to say hi, but then we struggle to help them take next steps.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

How do you balance allowing people to remain anonymous and them self-identifying so that you're not missing anyone and so that you can get them into uh next steps?

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Again, very clearly out front, we have a, I mean, you can't miss it. If you're new to the church, that's where we're pointing you. We point you there in our social, on our website, and if I send you that video, emails, whatever. So we are fine if someone says, Hey, I'm not going to do that, but we're still trying to point everyone there. First thing that happens there is we are going to check them in. All that means is we have connect cards there and we're going to fill it out for them. Even if we already have their data online, we want to know that they were there. So we're going to fill that out. My language around letting them be anonymous, Josh, is not, hey, don't come tell us you're here. It's you don't have to worry about us making a big deal about you being here. Now, we all know there's personalities that come in that want to make it a big deal, but most people, even like I'm a pretty extroverted, outgoing person. If I'm going to a new church, I just kind of want to chill in the back, get a nice view of how everything's going. I don't want to commit to anything right away. We want to let them know we're not going to embarrass them, call them out and all that, but we also do give very clear direction, free and post-service of where to go to that connect table so that we can at least know who was there.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

You mentioned that pipeline afterwards. How do we continue to communicate to people, identify where people are, and make sure that now that they're there, now that they've come back, that they're taking more steps into the church life.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Yeah, man. This is so simple, Josh. It's literally mapping out what that guest experience through that guest movement to next step should be. Every church has a little bit different language, vibe, style, et cetera. You just literally need to sit down with your team and say, okay, a first-time guest shows up on Sunday. What do we want to happen from there? Like, what are we hoping for them to do? If it's, hey, we want them to come to our next steps class and that's in three months, that's a problem. If it's we want them to get in a group, but groups aren't launching and they're all mostly closed right now, that's a problem. But more than that, it's just what is the next year of people doing like party with the pastor or pizza with the pastor, and they do that every Sunday, or they do new year dinners and things like that. There's no necessarily wrong answer there. It's just often we're overwhelming people with, hey, thanks for coming. If you want to get in a group, click here. If you want to come to our next steps, click here. If you wanted this, if you want to that, it's like, what do you want them to do? If they're saying, hey, I want to come back, we are interested. What would you have them do? And here's something else, Josh, we've learned the hard way is for us our growth track, we call it discovery. It's a one-time class. What we learned is we're filling a room full of new people and we're asking them for something, but we're not asking them how we can serve them. And that's been a really big disconnect in churches because someone new to your church, man, they may not be ready to serve. They may not be ready to just jump in a group and tell all their problems. So we've started asking them questions as well. Before we get into all that, we asked, what do you need for how can we serve you? You showed up at our church. How can we serve you? Maybe you're not saved, maybe you haven't been baptized. So we do freedom curriculum. Maybe there's something in your past that you just cannot become free from. Maybe it's financially you're overwhelmed. So we ask these questions. Maybe you're lonely, you need a new friend group. We ask all these questions that literally lead. To what the next step will be for them versus us telling them 15 options. We let them tell us, and then we move into the class portion where we say, hey, here's what we believe for you, and here's what we would like to see from you. We'd love for you to get in a group. We'd love for you to serve. But most importantly, first, what can we do to serve you? And that's tends to be a missing piece. But yeah, auditing that experience. What is the clarity behind what you want them to do next? Because most people are like, I don't do what is discovery? What is growth track? Like what happens there? Am I committing if I am I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm all in and I'm signing my my name to the roster? Or is it like, no, come meet the pastors first or whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

I'd like to drill down just a little bit more on the idea of just mapping out what the guest journey is once they decide to connect. Because I wonder how many people have it written down on a chart somewhere, what that looks like. It reminded me thinking about like what kind of diet works, the one you stick to. It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what diet, like what guest follow-up strategy works, the one that you stick to. When I think about budgeting, when I think about your calendar, if you don't plan your day, somebody else will plan it for you. If you don't tell your money where to go, it'll leak out places that you didn't really want it to end up, and you won't be able to achieve your goals as a family or as an organization. And so I think that same thing is true that we don't want to lose people and allow them to fall through the cracks. We want them to feel known, loved, and cared for. And that can only happen if we have a map for the guest journey. What are the the pathways after that class at Soko Church that you guys are pointing people to so they don't have to wait four months to connect?

SPEAKER_00 23:46

We have a big whiteboard and we currently manually put their photo in these different categories. We also create workflows through our church management system. And depending on what they say they would like, if they're saying instead of saying, hey, what's your next step? We say, hey, how can we serve you? Like I talked about earlier. If they say baptism, if they say salvation, if they say they need community, if they say they need help financially, if they say they need help with freedom, whatever those categories are, they get moved into a workflow. And our team that next day is reaching out right away. And for some of them, they're good and they're like, yeah, we're ready to serve. Well, then they get to pick a team they're interested in. Our team is reaching out, getting them to shadow. We have a very standardized flow for that shadowing process. We give them a little gift, we have certain communication and we help them, but it's all, it all moves quickly. It's all happening in the next 24 hours. We are moving them. They say, Man, I, you know, I feel far from God. I I need Jesus. Well, we're gonna get a hold of them the next day and see if we can help lead them to the Lord, or even that night or that that at that class, if possible, if they want to get baptized, we're gonna tell them about baptism in and being their next step. But we make it a very simple process. And again, the big thing that I think a lot of churches struggle with, even us at times, is that quick follow-up before they've kind of got back into the world and all the noise, like there's something God was prompting them to do. We want to steward them well.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

One of the things you talked about is the type of communication that they get based on where they're going. Churches shouldn't wait for someone to say something to write up what's gonna come next, what email they should get, what text. You're gonna be having the same four or five conversations with guests all the time. Just make a communication plan that this email goes out to this person, it's scheduled, this text, this person following up, this phone call, this type of resource to each person based on the pathways. Just plan that out ahead of time. Just write it out. Yeah, get us SOP figured out. And now that is running. And I think that's one of the ways that pastors can get burned out is they're trying to like manage each guest experience without having a standard operating procedure where if you just have that framework, you're just plugging that in, someone else is running it, and you're checking in, and that's gonna take a load off the pastor while also seeing more people move forward with the church.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

The biggest church in America, Craig Kerschel's church, their campus pastors before they go home on a Sunday, are already making phone calls and sending text to first-time guests. Like they don't play around, and it's a very simple process. Their number, their phone, you text them, you call them before you go home. Yeah, very easy stuff.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Well, probably the biggest thing that pastors could do to have the greatest impact on their church is not some big extravagant fancy thing. It's doing some simple things over and over again and just mastering those. So, Brad, you mentioned that uh you might have some resources or things for pastors to help them. We'd love to hear, hear about that.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Yeah, I don't know if you're able to put maybe something in the show notes, but something that really has helped us. This is not a new idea at all. But starting last year, moving into the fall and into the spring, into kind of those more growth seasons, we've started doing a discipleship series. So not just a sermon series, but a discipleship series. And here's what I mean by that. We're giving them a booklet that is all, you know, six, eight, twelve weeks, depending on the series. In that booklet, it is got all your fill-in-the-blinks for the week. It's got daily devotional, it's got your small group questions in it. It's an all-encompassing series that our entire church is doing across the board pretty much every day of the week, and and investing in that. And it has been one of the best things we've done. In fact, we're starting a new one in September that's a 12-week series called Set Free, based on the book of Galatians. It's literally every week an opportunity to talk about what we're adding to the gospel and people confessing that. And it's just been a really rewarding thing for our church. I just want to give that away. Maybe you use it as an idea. Maybe you go build your own, or maybe you use it because you don't have the resources right now to do that. I would love to just at least give that PDF of the booklet away, Josh, and then uh let people run wild with it. And hopefully it would be a big support tool.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Yeah, we'll put that in the show notes for people to get. And as you wrap up, Brad, what are you excited about right now? What are what are you working on in the future? Anything you want to tell us?

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Man, I'm really excited about Hello Church because not just what we've been doing, but we have some unbelievable things we're going to be releasing that are going to support a lot of what we just talked about, but really helping you see where there's a lapse in people, not just in showing up first-time guests, but in people who were serving, people who were giving, helping you implement some donor development. I'm really pumped about that, Josh, because very few churches I talk to have a clear strategy on donor development. And there's some data that came out a while back talking about how people give to a church the first time because you ask them, but they continue to give because of how you've thanked them. And it takes time and effort. And so we're building some really cool tools to help manage all that, give you some high-level views of the health of your church across the national average. And again, serving, attending, giving, and letting you have some very clear pathways to help support these things and build out some workflows for you. So it's going to be awesome, man. I can't wait. And uh yeah, I'm fired up.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Well, looking forward to seeing that come from you and Hello Church. Great conversation, very helpful as always. I know a lot of churches are going to get a better guest journey game plan in place after this conversation. I just wish I could talk to every pastor I listen to this and say, if you need help with that, I'd love to help you. I know Brad would love to help you. We'd love to help you figure that out for your church. So just reach out to us and we would we would be happy to sit down with you. No charge. Just want to help you win and succeed in your church. So thank you, Brad. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Josh, I want to say thank you to you. Thank you to you for what you do. We have had a number of churches we've sent your way. And the thing I love about you is have such a heart for churches and pastors and church planners, and you're always willing to help them regardless of uh their season. And I just want to tell you thank you for that as well. You've made a massive impact on the kingdom. And uh yeah, I want to give you a shout-out, man.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

I appreciate that. I don't always get a shout out on my own show. So today I do. Yeah, thank you, man. All right, talk to you later. All right, see you, Josh. Okay, that was a great episode with Pastor Brad Hampton. Hopefully, you were able to jot down a couple tips, tools, and tricks that will help your church create a game plan for your guest journey. Appreciate Brad sharing those resources with us as well. They'll be listed in the show notes for you to check out. And of course, if you want to have a further conversation on this, you can reach out to us on social media or you can email me at josh at buildhub.church. I want to mention again that your team.church is offering the pro tier level of the digital assessment that can be customized with your own church's branding colors for free right now for 30 days at your team.church. Go check it out and help every volunteer at your church find a role where they can thrive. Also, would love for you to go and give us a follow at buildbud.church on Instagram. I post show clips there as well as tools, and it's just a great place for us to continue the conversation. If you're enjoying this episode, please hit the subscribe button and go for every listen to podcast and give us a quick review. Thank you for joining us today. It means so much to me. Can't wait for you to be with us next time. Until then, keep leading and believing strong.