SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Build the Church podcast. I'm Josh Roberry. On this show, each week we want to do our best to help you gain momentum, grow your church, and go the distance in ministry. I'm so excited to have Pastor Michael Murphy back on this episode to talk about discipleship. Discipleship is something I'm so passionate about, and I know you are as well. But how do we find practical tools to implement discipleship in our church? So, Michael, today is going to jump into that and give us some great knowledge on how to make better disciples, more disciples, and more effectively engage people in the discipleship process on this episode. So know you're gonna love it. One of the things that we want to do whenever we're helping people take steps in discipleship is to help them join a team so they can discover their purpose. So, what are you doing to help people in your church discover how God created them and what he created them to do? That's what your team.church does. Your team.church is an online spiritual gift and disc assessment that gives each volunteer a one-on-one personal portrait on how God created them and then matches them to a team. But instead of just matching to a generic team, your team.church shares with each volunteer why their personality is a good fit for that team in each team match. So if you're looking to help people discover their purpose and take a next step in discipleship, go check out your team.church. You can get all of the features free for 30 days right now on the trial period that we're running. So I hope it helps you out. Now let's jump into our conversation with Michael. I'm joined again today with my good friend Michael Murphy, who's the founder of Leaderscape and the author of a great book I think every pastor should get their hands on, Accelerate. Michael has helped churches and pastors around the globe develop systems, connect with new people, and really raise up leaders in their churches so that their churches can have the infrastructure to support growth. Michael, I'm so glad that you're joining us again on the podcast. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Thank you for having me once again, Josh. And today I am absolutely pumped because we're talking about one of my favorite uh topics, and that is supercharging discipleship. It's it's on it's on the tip of everyone's tongue right now, this whole notion of let's get discipleship really happening.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

I heard you say one time that people don't have a leadership problem. They have a discipleship problem. There's a lot of churches right now that are don't have uh anyone to turn things over to on a macro and a micro level. Could you talk to us a little bit about that and and tell us what the problem is that we're trying to solve today?

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yeah, there's a huge percentage of pastors right now in the US that are heading into their mid to late 50s, all uh, you know, planning to retire in the next you know five to seven years. Um and only a very small percentage of them have actually a successor. Uh they said, heard it said there's no success without a successor. And really the the the essence of the issue there, the problem is that when we don't raise disciples, um we've got we've got to get in people from outside. Now, that's not always a bad thing, uh, but I I do have this burden to help pastors to raise disciples who make disciples.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Whenever I look at church growth, there's kind of two ways of thinking about it, and they don't have to always be um at odds with each other. But one is I'm gonna grow my church by getting a lot of people into my doors, and they're gonna have a great experience, and the church is gonna grow. And then there's another thought that the church is gonna grow when I grow people, and those people are gonna be the ones that bring people to church and disciple them. Maybe talk a little bit about that and how you dealt with that dichotomy and what you do.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

I'm certainly not antagonistic to an attractional model, better than a repulsive model, right? Um you know, sometimes we've we've been forced to feel guilty, like we're gonna got an attractional church. Yeah, I think that's better than the alternative. Uh, but here's the here's the thing Jesus worked with both. He actually spoke to thousands on on hillsides, um, taught them, fed them, healed them, and then and then broke them down uh into small groups. Um we see the same thing in the New Testament pattern. I just think this is a God pattern where we love a gathering. We we I we love me a good gathering, right? Whether it's you know our favorite football team or concert or what we like being with a crowd, but but actually building a life happens not in rows but circles. And I think that um in that early New Testament model, they met in the temple and house to house. And I think that typically in the Western church, we're better at the temple kind of side of things, the the Sunday weekend gathering, than we are at at building small groups that genuinely make disciples. And if we've seen a small group model that's been pretty um uh pretty weak. Um, maybe just, you know, ask for and no more, and you know, they come and eat too much cake and drink too much coffee and go home, you know, spiritually overweight as well, uh not knowing what to do.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Well, I know there's churches out there that might be frustrated with small groups, and uh that's who we want to reach today. Maybe n maybe you're frustrated not because you don't believe in small groups, but because it's just not working for you. What are some of the reasons you've seen that small groups don't work and don't lead to discipleship in churches?

SPEAKER_01 5:30

The very phrase you said, uh that you know, small groups don't work for me. Uh that if you're not careful, that can actually be something that almost prophesies over your situation. So I'd say a lack of conviction. Um at the end of the day, we do what we want to do and and and and resources flow to the things that we truly are convicted that we need to do. Umdays. Most resources and energy and effort goes to Sundays, and that comes out of a conviction. Um when you shift your conviction and you read the scriptures in light of Jesus' last command, and we we genuinely want to make Jesus' last command our first priority, and that becomes a conviction, your behaviors, your energy, your resources will shift accordingly. I think the other thing is people have had bad experiences with small groups. Um I I I I met a uh know a lady the other day who was sent to a small group, um, you know, was genuinely seeking fellowship in a new church, and she's a professional woman, and sadly she was sent to a hoarder's house. Um literally the the the how and it was got like that's an extreme example. You may not not have been sent to a hoarder's house, but you might have been sent to someone to a home where one or two of the people felt like it was their personal support group, or others who were just um, you know, uh clicky, or others where they put on a spread that would um, you know, that Jamie Oliver would be happy about and like how could you ever reproduce that? So or or or or Terry the teacher got up and you know had his own homemade pulpit and he he bought the word. And so this is not this is not life-giving small groups. Life-giving small groups is about us. It's about engaging, it's about application, it's about people speaking 80% of the time and the and the teacher speaking 20% of the time. And every every one of those groups, everyone is becoming more like Jesus. They're being they're being they're moving one step in their spiritual formation.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

We talk about moving one step into their spiritual formation. What are some of the processes and systems that you recommend to churches to start gaining traction to see people connected to the church and join a small group, and then those small groups really thrive and produce more leaders.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

In a mall, if you want to know where to find HM or you know, something like that, you you go to this and it says you are here. So we've got to work out where where people are. Many people, and you you hit it on a nail in the head, many pastors are unhappy. They're frustrated with where their small groups are at. And so I think getting some small groups going out of that conviction we've got to do this, um, and I know no other way to make disciples than in small groups. You can do you can be the best teacher in the world, and if people are sitting in rows, it'll give them information and teach them, but it's not gonna be life exchange. It's not gonna be heart to heart. It's not they're not gonna be transformed by that. Like I said, we get transformed in uh in circles, not just in rows. Um and so one way to get things going is to start what I call turbo groups, and that is your key leadership team. Everyone volunteers to start a group. You decide what to do in a group, you know, you keep it life-giving, um, you you you you identify uh moving everyone one step in their spiritual formation. And in our leaderscape curriculum, we've developed you know 21 next steps and a bunch of questions to help to locate where someone's at. We won't go into the that sort of detail right here. But so move them one step, build three deep, and take everyone on mission. And so if you build those, let's say you've got half a dozen key leaders or staff members or whatever, and you each start a group with half a dozen couples. Well, there's 36 couples right there. Let's say half of them uh decide to start a group after your eight weeks together with them. Um well you've now you've you've you've had revival in your small groups right there. And and so another way of doing it, if you've got nothing, is to maybe bring everyone in to the church in round tables for an eight or ten week session where you teach them about small groups. And again, we've got a lot of the curriculum that could help with that. Um and then and then you you you have them sitting around tables, and so you have a short 15-minute plenary session, and then you have questions on the tables, and you you simulate a small group setting, and then hopefully those groups will have a great experience, and some of them just that they they don't change small groups, they just change venue. That at the end of the eight weeks they move to Bob and Sylvia's house and and Terry and Kate's house, and there you you start your small groups there. So that's how to kind of get them birthed from a slow start. Uh and then I think I touched on the other thing of identifying clearly what are the four key roles of a group leader. So typically it's run a good group, try and avoid heresies, have a bit of a laugh, open the word, app have people want to come back next week. Um but we add to that move everyone one step on their spiritual formation. And some of those would be things like um uh um, you know, if they're not, if they haven't got a friend, help them to get a sense of belonging. If they're not born again, help them get born again. If they're not water baptized, help them water baptized, if they're not filled with the spirit, filled with the spirit. If they're not understanding how important community is, help them to do that. If they're not used to coming on regularly and and me and my house will serve the Lord and be there in church on a Sunday, help them to do that. If they're not serving, every small group needs to be serving. Uh if they're not giving. So there are, we've identified 21 of them. I'm not saying that's a foolproof list, um, but you you help them to do that. And then you build three deep. So run a good group, thr uh move everyone step, three deep. So the goal of a group leader, and we help them with this, with a little mini curriculum, is to help raise up two other apprentices, to use the Jesus model, and then the final one is take everyone on mission every week. In other words, we have uh even an empty chair, a vacant seat in the in the in the in the lounge room or the dining room, and you say that's the seat that we're believing that your friends are gonna get help. They're gonna become here and and and so really focus that and and share together. Who are you gonna invite to church or group this week? And so you put those four together, you create a dynamic environment and a very clear understanding of what it means to be a life-giving, multiplying small group leader.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

That's great stuff there. And we're we're only 10 minutes in. I mean, those four things, I think if every pastor takes that and and applies that, they're gonna start having some supercharge small groups. Maybe you take a second and what are the dangers of being a church that doesn't have discipleship?

SPEAKER_01 12:06

I think that in the um in the commitment allergic generation that we have right now, if the only connection to church life is the tenuous link with Sunday, Pastor, it's exhausting. Let's be honest. You gotta pull a rabbit out of a hat. You gotta you gotta preach your best sermon every week and let's be honest, we don't. Um you gotta have extra great worship because people people decide, they'll look at the weather, they'll look at pe people people can choose not to show up to a venue, but they can less choose to not turn up for friends. And when they build that community, that that that that posse within the life of the local church, um, that's people want to be known. I think Pastor Chris maybe coined this, but everyone wants to be known and everyone should be needed. They get known in small groups and they get needed in teams. And I think when you're with the double punch of known and needed, not only are they not going anywhere, which is not the goal, we're not wanting to to lock them in, um, but they're positioned for themselves to start to become more like Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

When I think about churches and small groups and discipleship, it's often a culture thing. Whenever churches start having members that are just only looking forward to the Sunday service and not the foyer, we need people looking forward to both the Sunday service as well as the foyer where they're gonna see people. And if you don't have a culture of discipleship in small groups, you've now reduced yourself to an experience that you have to compete with everything else that's just entertainment. But when they start looking forward to the foyer, because that's where they're gonna see their friends, their community, you are no longer competing with being the best show in town because you're offering something tangible and real to people.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

High five. Oh, absolutely. I think I think it's great. I think that um there there's there's so much to be said. We we are we are human beings, not human doings. And and I think that um, you know, I've I've never met a pastor that didn't think his church was the friendliest church in town. All right. Uh I've heard it said, and they'll draw in an anecdote or two, which is awesome, but better than people saying it's very unfriendly, cold place you've got there. Um but the the proof of the pudding is in the eating. And and the the the issue is God is sending you people. Um and and how how are those people sticking? And the previous podcast that we did, if you didn't get a chance to to view that, um, on on guest engagement, on that front end of God's guests and so forth, is the start of this journey. But God is a multiplication God. And so everything about God reproduces. But the fact that Josh and I are sitting having a conversation in a human body is the product of multiplied thousands of tens of thousands of multiplications, initially starting with two cells and then multiplying. Well, that's the natural example or or or metaphor of what's happening in the spirit. God is all about multiplication. Um, Pastor, you might be really discouraged right now. I want you to listen to me. God wants your church to double. I prophesy that He wants your church to not only grow by a few more than last year, he wants your church to double. Now you will never do that by simply putting on better Sundays. You will only do that by raising disciples. And our testimony is that as I said, we started with sixteen broken groups, end up with three hundred and thirty groups in thirty months.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Yeah, tell that story, because I think we talked about that before we started recording.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

We did, but I I think that uh my first year as senior pastor, uh uh God has given me a an a bit a bit of a gift to to wind souls, and I love it. Um a first generation believer, I'm I'm never too far from the memory of what I was. Um and so we saw a thousand they hadn't had hardly any decisions for Jesus in the in the ensuing couple of years. There's a bit of a tumultuous time in the church. And so we saw an average of about 20 a week, a thousand, and I would celebrate every week, praise God, and and kind of also thinking, God, yeah, you're validating my leadership here, right? Thank you, Jesus. Something good's going on. Because there was some other stuff that was a bit challenging. Um, and so uh, and so it's really, really important to understand I've lived this. At the end of the year, I looked at that crowd and hardly any of the thousand decisions were there. It was like a revolving door like you have at hotel, in one door and out the other. And I and I I felt quite broken actually. I was like really down and I was I was I was a bit ashamed. I thought, Lord, I I've I've I've not honored you. And so that we started this journey, and then uh and we we looked at our small groups because I I I did understand that really the only way to disciple people was people looking at each other, people, people engaging in deep relationship, not just on a Sunday. And I looked at these 16 groups and they were they were not pretty, they were nothing to celebrate. And I thought, Lord, what are we gonna do? And so we got very intentional. Um, and as I said, in 30 months we saw 16 groups become 330, um, and they were vibrant, and people the buzz in the foil was who are you winning for Jesus? Who are you inviting next week? Who's your prayer for three? Um, and we had encounters and freedom, and it was it was just a glorious time. Um and so when people came to church, they weren't coming to church to get pumped up, they were coming to church to celebrate what Jesus had been doing midweek. Um and it was a game changer. And and uh and I want that for every single one of you amazing men and women of God who are leading churches around the country and around the world.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

I think a lot of people hearing that in one year you went from 16 to 330 groups with. Two and a half years. Two and a half years. Okay, thirty much, yeah. And I think that's another point too. Pastors a lot of times think year to year. In discipleship, you have to think generationally. Um, what can you accomplish?

SPEAKER_01 18:52

What is the saying that someone said uh You overestimate what you can do in a year and underestimate what you can do in five. And if you get that flywheel, we talk about a closed loop flywheel. Um and and and that's about raising leaders who are missional, who are raising leaders who are missional, who are raising leaders who are missional. And rather than just an arithmetic or even a geometric increase, you start getting an exponential increase. And that was our that was our story, quite frankly.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

I wanted you to talk a little bit about that because I think there might be someone that says, hey, we're doing small groups, we're following up with guests, but we're not raising up leaders. What is that person missing?

SPEAKER_01 19:30

I've I've started to, and this is a relatively recent thing. I mean, I honor all of those churches that that have vibrant teams. Um, and I love teams. Teams are awesome. We when you put your hands in the middle and you do stuff together and you celebrate and and and your input is part of that fruit of the life's change and the baptism, like you wouldn't be dead for quids, right? It's amazing. But teams are essentially a difficult ma uh forum to make disciples. Because the essence of it is function. Um and and and the other group that I used to pitch really solidly, um, that I love is interest groups, uh, or or um what's the what's the the term for it? Free market. Again, not against it, but but you know, the the boys get together Sunday morning, or sorry, Saturday morning, lycra, go get on their bikes, go for a ride, come back and suck on a cappuccino at the local cafe. It's a tough thing to disciple someone in that forum. To me, I love free market, I love interest groups, but I just call it Christianity. What I what I want what I'm wanting to help you with is groups that are intentionally raising disciples. Doesn't mean they're all deep and meaningful all the time and serious and we take ourselves seriously. No, have some fun, have a laugh. Um but but but underneath it all, there's this very clear direction of actually moving people one step in their spiritual formation of raising three deep, so the leader and two other leaders. Um and we've got a couple of little hacks that can help with that. Um but but I I just think that if when you when you do that, uh it'll take it's it it's it's a tough thing to get going. The enemy will fight you um with every last demon in hell because he does not want this multiplication thing happen. Like I said, I I I've said many times, I don't think he's too bothered with people coming and putting their rusty dusty on a on a church pew every other week and going, Amen at the right time and lifting up one ha one arm and worshiping Jesus and going home and basically living like Jesus isn't real. I think he's very threatened as people start to become disciples who take seriously the kingdom mission. To make disciples. I think that's a threat.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

One of the things I wanted to touch on is we talked a lot about what the teams can do, what the leaders can do. But the pastor himself, if he's not leading a small group, are these things going to work? If the pastor is not leading a small group himself, what is the pastor's role in his own example in creating your culture discipleship?

SPEAKER_01 22:23

I'd go further than that. I'd say every elder, every key leader needs to be leading a group. And I know you'll get all the other, oh, I'm busy in my you know, creative and blah blah blah, whatever. Um it's it's it's inauthentic to be pitching something that you're not doing yourself. Um I I think again, our our dear friend and mentor, Pastor Chris Hodges, he he actually talked about uh every sermon he preaches, he adds a small group bit. He used to do that, I don't know where he still does, but he has a portion there where he says, Hey, it was amazing in our small group on the on the uh last week. Uh, you know, Bob came in, he had a migraine headache, and we prayed. God healed him. Man, I love my small group. Move on. So there's that slot, and so you're not saying every week, you know, bang the drum, come to small groups, you need to be in the small group, small groups for everyone. But you're actually just you ne it's never far from your mention. And when you say in my small group, in our small group, this is what happened, you can't preach a louder message than that.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Well, Michael, you do such a great job of leading by example in this area, and I know that there's a lot that pastors can continue to learn from you in implementing these systems. How can they get in touch with you and learn more about uh supercharging discipleship in their church?

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Uh through multiplying small groups. And honestly, it can be yours. It really can. Don't don't dismiss it because you've tried and hasn't worked yet. It will work as you get that conviction. Probably the best thing is um uh I'm an open book. Just just follow me on Instagram, Michael R Murphy, M-I-C-H-A-E-L-R-Murphy at Michael R. Murphy, and then just ping me a DM and mention uh Josh and the Build the Church podcast. Here's what I think is our biggest issue. If you've got some small groups, let me know how many you've got, and then I will I will then um you know, rather than even waste your time uh with having to get on a call and so forth, I can give you some information uh for the smaller churches that uh that that you can guide you through. There's some videos I put in there and and you can choose your own adventure there. Um and and if you're if the situation is a little more complex, then we may be able to get on a call. Um but best thing, just DM me in Instagram, Michael at Michael R. Murphy, and we've got a bunch of stuff there that can help as well. Um Josh, I really appreciate the privilege of of being here with you. You do such a great job supporting pastors, church planters, and and uh pastors of existing churches alike. Um I'm a real fan, man. I appreciate all you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

I appreciate that so much, and it is a huge honor to have you. And I'd love for you just to close us out with praying for the pastors that are listening right now.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

I would love to. Heavenly Father, we thank you. You're a multiplication God. Everything in your kingdom uh is about doubling and doubling and doubling. And Lord, for those of us when we get stuck, and Lord, I've been there, we all have, and it's it seems to be enough just to stop the bleed. Um, hopefully to have the same at the end of the year as we had at the start of the year, and for offerings to be covering the budget. Lord, I I just pray you'd help to lift us. Give us a gift of faith that we might start to resonate with your multiplication spirit. And Lord, give us the wisdom and insight to be able to apply that into everyday life in local church ministry. Father, I pray for your hand of blessing and favor. I pray particularly for the families of the pastors that are that are listening or viewing uh us today. Father, let your hand of blessing provide for all their needs. Give them the right rhythms, God, that those that are feeling frayed at the edge, Lord, would get strengthened in their faith. Father, in the name of Jesus, we commit all of your generals to you right now. What a privilege to serve them. And Father, we we we we give you the praise and the glory that we get to do this. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Amen. I hope you enjoyed hearing from Michael Murphy today. This is actually the second time he's been on the podcast. You can go back and check out the previous episode that he did with us on how to create and run a VIP team in your church to make sure every guest is cared for as if they were God's guests. It's a great episode. You won't regret it, and it goes nicely with this one as well. Again, this episode is brought to you by your team.church. Your team.church is going to help you help people discover their purpose, help them see how God has created them and match them to a team where they can begin serving others. Your team.church uses AI to help you do automatic team matches as soon as the test is finished. So go check out your team.church. You can try the always free version right now at your team.church slash disc and begin implementing it in your next steps class or growth track today. Or if you want a custom branded URL for your church that uses your brand and your logos, you can try the pro version for free for 30 days right now. So go check that out at your team.church. I want to thank you for always tuning in. I hope you go and rate us wherever you listen to podcasts. It's one of the best ways you can support this show. Please share this with another pastor that's passionate about discipleship and go follow us on Instagram at buildheup.church. It's such a joy to have you each week. Thank you for being with us. I can't wait for you to join us next time. Until then, keep believing and leading strong.