SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hey guys, thank you for joining the podcast today. Hey, thanks for having us. Happy to be on. So I have Pastor Zach Morris Essential Church in the Des Moines, Iowa area. And he is using Claude to do some assessment things he showed me. And also an ARC coach, successful planner. We can call you successful because it started and it's still good.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Almost one year, huh?

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Yeah, almost there. Pastor Nathan Dorensky at Rhythm Church in Cincinnati, Ohio. So these guys are church planners, pastors, friends of mine in the process, two guys that as soon as they came through the process, I've really just loved and my wife loves and I just really enjoy serving you guys and are getting to know you. But what we're talking about today is that you guys have built some assessments that have created some paths for discipleship in your church using AI, which is something I've done as well, something I've been passionate about for a long time. And when I talk to you about what you're doing, you're actually doing a little bit more than me. And so I thought it'd be good to hop on here and hear what you guys are doing and uh maybe inspire some other church planners to do the same thing or maybe even utilize the tools that you guys are kind of in an incubator stage with right now. And so I'll start with Nathan since he's your senior Zach by one year as a as a pastor and church planner. Okay, so Nathan, tell us a little bit about your journey to pastoring and then uh where your church is and a little bit about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Yeah, so my journey was I came out of an executive pastor role at a previous art church plant. So I was a part of the launch team of Art Church number 600, Radiant Church in Kansas City with Pastor David Perkins. Got to jump on that team and really see a church go from zero to you know successful, um, church plant over a thousand people, permanent facility, you know, all the different things. And in being in that role, I was able to see and develop and learn really the importance of systems and structures to be able to help in a healthy way pastor and disciple people and how that can be an incredible asset and tool for doing that. And, you know, my wife and I's journey to plant was really out of that season when we were transitioning from portable to permanent, feeling like God was telling us that, hey, you've got it in you to do this again. So we jumped out of the boat, left a great life in Kansas City, and planted Rhythm Church in Cincinnati, Ohio.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Yeah, and uh, you reminded me the other day that when I went to visit David Perkins and Radiant Church, that I told you that you'd be doing this one day or something like that, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Yeah. You ever the recruiter, you were like, hey, when are you gonna plant your church? And I said, I've I've already been a part of a church plant. I don't need to. And you're like, I don't know. That usually makes the best planters. So uh yeah, you're recruiting nonstop. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Well, kudos to you for going through that. It takes a lot of sacrifice and then turn around and do it again with your own family. So thank you for you know serving the people of Cincinnati and obeying that call. So, Zach, bring us up to speed. He we have uh Nathan is bringing in, you know, perspective of pastoring church members from executive pastor. Kind of what was your history and what are you guys hoping to do with the Central Church?

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Absolutely. So um I've been in uh full-time ministry for 10 years, started out in youth ministry in a very small town in Oakland, Iowa. We were there for four years and started building systems there because our church was in a cornfield. And we started a like a van ministry of pickup spots in towns and started pulling kids in and just started seeing a lot of success there. And then um, the Bible college I went to before starting that role contacted me to actually come and be the youth pastor there at their church, but then also be an instructor at their Bible school and start teaching student ministries and how to grow youth ministries. I did that for five years and we developed systems within the youth program, grew that youth group, and then we started the YA program, and then they brought me up as an associate to start helping systems and structures. It's an international ministry, so just kind of uh redeveloping departments, creating systems and processes and how to empower people. And when you're connected to a Bible school, I think my prayer was, God, please give me the wisdom of how to give people practical, hands-on experience while they're here at Bible school in the church. And so the Lord like helped me just kind of build out systems for that. And then lo and behold, a year and a half ago, in that role, the Lord started burdening burdening me with people back home in Iowa. And me and my wife answered the call to move back home to around the Des Moines area where my grandpa formerly used to pastor. And now we're just here to pick up where he left off and reach this area with the gospel.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Wow. Well, it's just been such a joy to get to know you and your wife in the art process. And I, you know, I think what marks both of you guys is excellent. I'm attracted to excellence in people, maybe because I like it and myself and need it. I don't know. But uh, you guys both handle yourself with such excellence, and it's it's a joy to uh work with planners like you. So we're gonna talk about using AI to build assessments that create pathways for discipleship. And I'd love for you guys um to just take a second and maybe just talk about what your your tool is that you've been working on, and then we'll backtrack from there and ask some questions of how you even got in this field because neither one of you guys are like tech people. You're not, you know, IT background, you're not like a digital person, but you're a pastor that found a tool that allows you to bring what's in your heart and your mind for people to life. And so we'll go back to you, Nathan. Tell us about what you created and maybe it even started with one thing and kind of grew into another. I'm not sure, but just talk to us a little bit about it.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Yeah, I mean, one of the big things that we always say is that everyone has a next step. So it doesn't matter if you've been following Christ for a moment or for decades of your life, there is a next step in that just Christian maturity, that progressive sanctification process that we all have. And for us, it was as we employed tools like growth track, you know, spiritual gift assessments, personality profiles. For me, I just kept thinking there's there's there's more meat on this bone as far as what are we able to do here? And I think with AI, what it's done is to your point, is lowered the technical thresholds. Where before that was a high barrier to entry. Now that barrier is basically gone. If you can articulate what you see in your heart in regard to a platform or program or tool. And so for us, it started really simply with I wanted an online way for be for people to be able to take a spiritual gift assessment and a personality profile. And I wanted it to stay within our own ecosystem. There's incredible tools out there, but it takes people outside of what we're trying to accomplish as a church and even communication. So even little things like language, branding, color, all of that really matters and speaks when you're sending somebody to a spiritual gift assessment, right? Like we've all probably done it, you've sent it, but the website looks terrible and you're kind of ashamed that you're sending that link to that person, but the tool worked. Um, how do we fix that? How do we do that within the church? And as I was doing that, I started thinking about the other things I was naturally doing as a executive pastor, but then also now as a church planter. And we were doing annual church surveys to understand where people's spiritual vibrancy was, meaning, you know, what's their relationship with Jesus look like? How often do they read the Bible? Do they feel like they can understand the Bible? How often do they worship? Is it just a Sunday thing or is it something that is an integral part of their life? And then even like, are they leading a small group? Do they feel like they're ready to take a level up step in leading versus just attending small groups, things like that? And as we started pulling that thread, the the platform or the assessment just became more and more robust to where once we got to that point, then it was like, well, wait a minute, what could we overlay? Maybe some season of life questions. You know, the single mom who just gave her life to Jesus is in need of something spiritually that is different than the 60-year-old business leader that's been following Christ for the last 40 years. So, how do we actually able, how are we able to customize that spiritual pathway? And that's really when it started, I feel like, taking ground for us and gaining momentum because it took a passive system and now all of a sudden it was we're able to overlay a customized spiritual growth plan for people. Because if you can see where they're at spiritually, if they're willing to input that data and season of life, then all of a sudden you can start plotting that out to other different spiritual growth steps. Maybe it's they need to read the start reading the Bible consistently. Maybe it's they need to be in a small group for parents. Maybe it is they need to be in a, you know, a financial peace university small group or something like that. But what we started doing is being able to overlay what are the possible spiritual next steps that we can provide someone at Rhythm Church, having that in the same assessment piece that's looking at people and saying, here's where they're currently at, and then allowing that assessment tool to help us give them a clear next spiritual step. So that's what we're doing currently. It's still, like you said, it's in the incubator phase. It's we're beta testing this thing, I feel like perpetually, but that's where we're currently at.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Yeah, I've seen it. It, you know, you're you're saying that, but I mean, I think anybody could use it if they had access to your link right now. It look, it looks amazing. And Zach, same thing. And I think before you say anything, it's I noticed with both of you guys is, and I wanted to write this down, is you both are already kind of like systematic people, like very organized, uh, very strategic in the way that you lay things out. You know, Zach, you you've been sending me resources to use and you haven't even started your church yet. And so I think that probably lends itself to if you're gonna build something with Claude, uh, to already kind of have that mindset, it probably helps out a little bit. But Zach, go ahead and tell us like what does your assessment look like? What is it doing?

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Absolutely. So it all began with actually one of our main statements of you are essential. That how do we make that more than just something we say, but something someone feels when they come through the door of our church or join our launch team? Well, you know, there's two different leadership pathways. You know, you can build an empire on the backs of people like Pharaoh, which means you shove them into a role and say, you're gonna do this. Or like Jesus, you identify the potential that God put in them, you discern that, you perceive that, and then you serve them. Good leaders serve what's in their people and then cheer them on and give them the resources they need to accomplish their God-given destiny. So my idea was is okay, um, obviously, when you step into as a church planner, you have that apostolic help that you can discern quickly what kind of giftings are in this person, but they don't know you. You don't know them. So when I'm telling you I see this on you, they were like, I don't know, I'm not too sure about that. So I was like, Lord, help me put something before them that like they could trust that's not just me, that they see what's in them. So what we did was we took the spiritual gifts, we took the disc and we took the passions, and then I put in all the basically results of what is all those spiritual gifts, what are the discs? What's the growing points of the discs? What is the passions? And then what I did is I created a project in Claude where I basically fed it. What are all the growth points of this disc? What is what is the best things that these gifts can do and build out? And so I just started typing away. I even put what are struggles with someone who's newly saved, someone who's walked through a divorce, somebody who is older and they just gave their life to Jesus, they're younger. I mean, I just started dumping in like more like sociology, psychology of like what people are facing and how they need to be pastored. And then all the results of, like I said, the spiritual gifts, personality, passions. And then I took the organizational chart that we believe that we're gonna build within Essential with all the positions, all the details of what those positions hold, the departments, and I dumped that in there. And then I basically said, okay, Claude, I'm gonna put together an assessment. And when the results come in of how long they've been saved, what they're walking through right now in this season, all these results. Um, I need you to spit out a five-page document of who they are, what's their gifts, what's their personality, how does that apply to building a church? How can they be pastored? How can I pastor them through this season? But then also, where exactly do they fit within our organizational chart to help move this thing forward? And then, and then a final note that is just an encouragement. And it yet to fail, every person who gets their assessment actually uh either sitting in front of us or on the call starts crying because they didn't know everything God put in them, and they finally feel like somebody is there to help them discover why God put them on the earth. And that's to me everything.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

That's powerful. I mean, you you started with the why, that you really wanted people to see what was inside of them if they couldn't really see it for themselves. And that's the end result. What a powerful way to use that tool to affirm how God's created people, that they have a purpose. And the fact that you've tapped into their passions is just so it's so amazing. So it sounds like you're off to a good start with that. Well, I want to back it up a little bit from there. So I I feel like I got the why and the what from from each of you guys, but I'd also want to ask the how. So when did you think, man, Claude can help me build something? How what what was the path to that?

SPEAKER_01 14:09

I mean, for me, it was the more I started using Claude versus other AI, you know, platforms, the more I began to realize that there's just the right kind of horsepower under the hood. Right? Like you other platforms are incredible at doing specific things. But when I when I started digging into what I was trying to do within the ministry context, organizational context, and producing the the output that we I wanted, um, Claude was the right fit. So I started, you know, teaching Claude. I spent a substantial portion of time teaching Claude and giving examples of what I wanted, of even my own, like our language as a church. Like we've got a very pretty, I would say a robust brand guideline of culture points, language, colors, all of that, you know, how to use our logo, how not to use our logo, which is probably just as important. And we're I was uploading all of that. So I spent a good amount of time teaching Claude how to think the way that I wanted it to think before we began trying to create any of this uh bigger output. Because if the foundation wasn't right, then that's when you get frustrated with AI, and that's when you get frustrated with why are that's nothing, that's not what I asked for. You're doing something completely different. So for me, it was there, and it once it got to that point is when I felt like, oh, I could start giving this some larger projects that would be able to then take that administrative workload off of myself or even people on the team.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

What about you, Zach? Um, exactly what Nathan said. It was the engine under the hood. There's something about Claude and how it builds out, um, even I would say just systems and processes, it really thinks more thoroughly and deeply than uh ChatGPT uh or others. And so I just began to go with it. I I paid the subscription. I was like, this is things worth it. And so once we started building out our department, basically systems processes, policies, procedures with it, uh, and then the teams, I I and then I it it built out my organizational chart for me. And I'm like, this is just so great. And then the idea was branching from that is now how do I basically connect the people to all of this so that way they can um see that they're the right fit for that exact spot. And so we're just started slowly but surely with Claude building out a lot of those systems and processes, and then all of a sudden I noticed that I could literally program Claude, like Nathan said, and tell it exactly uh what I wanted. And um, yeah, just that's how it started being put together.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

So and then how did you guys get better? Like, where did you go to learn how to do this and and improve what you were doing? Was there any resources that you used, or what was that process like?

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Man, I'll defer to Zach. I was it mine was a lot of trial and error. And then um asking other pastors, other people, uh if I saw something on you know Instagram or YouTube about some utilization of Claude, I would, you know, immediately save it and then try to implement it in some way to see if it would work, see what were the kinks were, if I wasn't typing it right or articulating a goal clearly. But for me, it was a lot of trial and error and then trying to steal ideas from other people.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Yeah, mine was trial and error. I got together with my team and just started asking feedback. They started taking, uh, I think it was just the spiritual gifts, and they were like, man, this is really good. And I was like, okay, what about we add in the personality? Because we began to see is like spiritual gifts were the what, and then the personality was the how. Like you actually might, you know, have the spiritual gift of encouragement, but you don't have a very outgoing personality. So exhortation is a gift, but it might actually be seen on a one-on-one conversation rather than in front of you, loud, encouraging. So then I saw the what, then we added the how, but then the passion was the where. So it was like, and that's we just so it was trial and error, just kept adding it. And then I saw, oh my goodness, they're an encourager, but they're also more quiet and sedate, but then their passion is kids. Well, that makes sense. They don't want to be in front of adults, but man, they encourage and exhort and make kids feel seen and loved. And when all those stacked on top of each other and we began to do that, I was like, man, this could really show someone how all these gifts apply. And I mean, I'm telling you, when you've got five spiritual gifts and it's partnered showing you how your personality works with it, and then how with your passion, how you can do that within the tech team or the worship team or the kids team, these people are without excuse of just like, oh yeah, this is what I was made for. And uh, so yeah, it was just trial and error, adding on adding.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

So well, I'm a little jealous of you guys hearing Zach talk about having team members use it and then interacting with them and knowing them personally because the tool that I'm building, your team, it's it's all up here in my mind, but I don't, I don't have people I, you know, I got my kids and my wife and friends, I'm trying to get to take it, but I can't work with people on that level. So you're getting some really good feedback for that. And I think that's a really good thing for pastors. When I think about building the app that I've been working on, your team.church, I was like the hugest chat GPT guy. I don't know, did you guys start out chat GPT or were you always Claude? You guys started chat. Yeah. Chat's like the gateway drug to AI. And uh so I I was so loyal to chat because I tried Gemini, I tried Grok, maybe tried a couple other things. I just thought, man, this is not as good as chat. But I started getting frustrated with chat and I tried to build an app with chat for ARC. I built something called ARC Launch Coach GPT, where I spent hours and hours and hours programming it to help people go through the assessment process at ARC. And man, it just was kind of a little disappointed with the results at the end of the day. And I started hearing people say more and more how Claude is helping them with code. And then I just started, I'm on X, so I started seeing people tweet about it. And I thought, okay, I have this idea, I've been trying to do for years. So go back to what you were saying earlier, Nathan. But the barrier to entry was so high, I could never get it off the ground, which is I know pastors want to use spiritual gift tests in their growth track, but it's not customized to their church. So I wanted to create something that did that, and the process to get that going was like mind-boggling. And so after using chat for all these years, I said, let's give Claude a try. And I'm telling you, I spent that first hundred dollars so fast to go to the Mac subscription. And then I'm like, man, can't have too much of a good thing. $200 a month, you know? So my wife's probably finding out this for the first time on this podcast that we spend $200 a month on Claude. But for me, once I started using it, it was almost like I didn't, I never went to YouTube. I never really asked anybody. I just asked Claude. It's like, this is what I want to do. How can I do it? And it and it it told me, it walked me through it. And until I built something that I was happy with. And I think what you guys have both experienced, because Nathan, you're saying, well, we're still figuring it out, is that once you get it and you start using it, you start seeing how more, what more you could do. And I think like for me, it's like I had to get to a place where I said, I know I can do more, I know this can do more, but I'm gonna stop here and just really try to make this one space as as good as it could be. So where's that line for you guys that you're gonna stop, you know, adding stuff to it or or keep going? And how do you know when you got there?

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Yeah, for me, I would say that it's probably always going to be some sort of. evolution on what all is involved because the way that I'm building it specifically is for it to help identify someone's next step at Rhythm Church.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

So that's can I pause right there, Nathan? Because I wrote that down. It seemed like Zach wanted to say the the why behind what pushed him towards it was for people to see their potential. But it seemed like for you, it's like you wanted to know what the exact next step is based on where that person is. And I think that kind of informs the rest of what you're doing. Like for me is I wanted AI to give a personality description of what life was like on a certain team. Like that's where I wanted to get with it. And so some other stuff blossomed from there, but it's like I want to encourage people to take from a next step based on their personality and that's it. So I I think am I right to say that's kind of what what your starting point was?

SPEAKER_01 22:53

So for me it is it's a I would describe ours as a it's a spiritual growth assessment or a tool to help identify those next steps. So because of that the next steps at Rhythm Church will always evolve. We had to an open small group market. So it's going to read the small groups that we have and then help point people to an actual small group, not a conceptual small group. It's going to ask them if they've been baptized if that answer is no, it's going to point them to the next baptism on our registrations. Like it's going to be able to help define some of that. So that's why I say it's always going to evolve a little bit because it is the constraint is what are the applicable next steps at Rhythm Church. It also will point people to a team member. So one of the great things about this is that we're trying to make it and build it in a way that does not eliminate the pastoral discipleship conversations and work of ministry. It's what we're trying to do is free up our people to have more of those conversations. So if more of our church is able to take an assessment tool like this, then they're going to know what their next what a possible next step is. And it gives them like three or four options. So it's not like just here's the one thing that you need to do. So it gives them some options kind of like a menu board to where they're able to kind of pick which one is appropriate for them. But ultimately for in my experience so far it's people don't have a lack of desire of taking a next step. They just don't know what next step to take like I want to grow I just don't know how. So we're trying to answer that question specifically.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

So are you guys afraid that maybe the results are going to give them something that's not true that you don't want to get in front of them and how are you handling that?

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Possibly I mean it's one of those things where I feel like for me personally the risk reward ratio is there. So I know that there's potential that the no tool is a perfect tool. And we're kind of going into it knowing that and understanding that hey we're this is going to probably make some mistakes which is why we're never eliminating the human element. We're pointing all of these so that it actually connects to a real person, not just here's your results have it and go live your life and prosper if possible right it's it's actually going to a real person so then we're able to follow up and have a pastoral discipleship conversation, whether it's a small group leader, a team leader, just even just a ministry team member that that can really care for that individual and help them because ultimately like we know that no person is perfect and no no life is perfect. People are going through real things so we're not trying to eliminate that we actually want to use these as flags to lean in and um to have those real pastoral conversations. And one of the things I'm excited about that is that we're trying to build it so we can track trend over time with people as well to where if they you know they rated themselves on a zero to 10 scale on something year one maybe they rated themselves a two on it hey year three or four they now they're a three or a four or a five even on this same scale though that's that's some spiritual steps that are worth celebrating.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Yeah. I would say too we've created a profile for every single one of these people joining and then we what we do is when they get their assessment and the results because of my fear of like maybe this might give them something that's inaccurate I ask them would you please highlight or circle or tell me the things that you believe are inaccurate because I mean we also plugged in a lot of like potential like they like they went through a divorce recently or you know um they they're empty nesting for the first time and I added all that in so it's saying hey you probably are dealing with XYZ and some people have given me the feedback. They're like actually believe it or not we're actually not facing that. We're doing well and I said I'm going to update that in your profile. So then I asked Claude to update their assessment so that way I'm always getting a fresh feed of like what's going on in their life. And what's really cool is now with because I have that if I'm about to go into the meeting with them or I'm a one-on-one, I say hey Claude point out the growth things we talked about last time, the things we wanted them to work on and hit. And it says these are the things you can ask them XYZ so I take notes and I'm updating that profile every time I meet um and it's all in another all their assessments are also being freshly uploaded into another project called the Dream Team Analysis, which basically I'm like basically saying, hey Claude, I just had so and so drop out of our launch team this is the position that they were helping grow. Who's my next best option according to all my assessments to run this and it literally analyzes every assessment and it says this is the person you want to start working with right now. And like it's it's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Wow that that really is I mean you're spending a lot of time with this and it sounds like you're really enjoying it Zach building this stuff out. Like I mean anyone's coming to your church is getting fully pastored. And uh no one at Nathan's church has an excuse to not take a next step. So I guess my last question for you guys is what what advice would you give to a pastor that's considering starting this and taking that next step?

SPEAKER_01 28:26

I would say take the time to teach Claude what you really want versus just throwing paint on a wall and seeing what sticks. If you spend the time on the front side it's like anything in life if you prepare for that moment it's going to go much better than if you're just trying to do something haphazardly.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

My advice is simple I would say every person wants to be seen, served, cared for and feel like someone's there to back them. And so make sure that you are just doing everything you can to get that person on the path Jesus intended for them. And if Claude is that resource then like Nathan said man dump as much as you can into that thing. Spend the time because it'll pay out for you with these relationships, building a team.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

So what I love about how you guys are using AI is you're not using it to get away from the work of pastoring, but to get more involved in it and do a better job of it. And that's just how I want pastors to use AI, not to write your sermons for you, not to send emails that that so you're not having to touch people, but to help you go deeper in their lives and serve them better. So thank you guys for your heart for people.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Do you think your tools will be available to people one day yeah I mean ours we're uh planning on actually making it public on our website rhythm.church in January to coincide with that 21 days of prayer at the beginning of the year. So that'll be the the really the first like anyone who goes to our website would be able to use it then.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Yes I've helped three churches kind of start the process so yes my heart is is that we'll be able to polish it and make it a little bit more professional and be able to ultimately help churches someday.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

Well I see the value in both of your tools I've seen them up close and uh can't wait for them to go live and um I will put some information to for people to connect with you guys in the show notes after the show. So thank you guys for being with me today. Thanks for having us.